Scientific proof of ghosts: The ultimate fools quest?
What will it take to prove the existence of the paranormal in the modern era? What methods will be publicly and scientifically accepted by researchers? If you were chosen to prove the existence of ghosts, how would you go about it?
By no means will proof of the paranormal be an easy feat. It might even turn out to be highly improbable. Compared to most of today’s subjects of skepticism, the paranormal will, without a doubt, be the hardest to prove. Bigfoot will either be found or forgotten due to population expansion and ultimately, technology. We will, sooner than later, have the capability to see the Earth in real time from satellites (publicly available that is), or have inexpensive UAV’s flying around sparsely populated areas, keeping an eye out. Someday soon, camera’s in phones will have the capabilities of their full size counterparts currently, and someone may catch a Bigfoot on their phone, with little skepticism to follow. Of course, a body might be found and that would end the argument for once and for all.
UFO’s will fall to the same fate although in different fashion. With the advent of small space pioneering companies, who will be creating their own rockets and have their own ‘mission control’ will also have their own state of the art radar facilities. No longer can conspiracy theorists blame the Federal government for cover-ups and disinformation, there will be a slew of companies who will be monitoring the heavens and incidently will pick up UFO’s. Once again, cellphone camera’s will give us crystal clear pictures of these craft, and sooner or later, we will have proof of extra-terestrial intelligent life. Then again, we might be contacted, and hopefully not like in Independence Day!
The paranormal on the other hand will be tucked away in it’s protective little niche of intangibility. Unfortunately, computers have opened Pandora’s Box when it comes to spirits. We have already seen frauds and hoax’s, tricks and pranks. Not that UFOs or Bigfoot are immune to this, it is just that sooner or later, UFOs or Bigfoot will be proven due to incidence. Ghosts, for the most part, will be unavailable when it comes to evidence. Someone might find a dead Bigfoot and toss him into a cooler *chuckle*, or someone may have E.T. handcuffed in the trunk of their car, but what about a paranormal entity?
Currently, the best evidence on the paranormal is suspect. Digital media can be falsified, and this is the paranormal investigator’s foremost medium to work with. EVP’s and ’spirit boxes’ receive more skepticism, it seems, than photographs. Personal experiences are subjective, and group experiences are rare being it that investigative teams work in small, tightnit groups who are also subject to skepticism because people can falsify their claims. This leaves us with…nothing to work with.
If I had to prove the existence of the paranormal, I would think that I would have to go with a media blanket. Let us say that I could get into and stay at a haunted location for a weeks worth of time. I would have to saturate the house with video and audio recorders. The video recorders would be set up in peer fashion, having been set up in another recorder’s field of view, if not just merely pointed at one another. This defeats attack by skeptics and helps validate the evidence. After evidence has been acquired, I would take everything to specialists in the field to validate against tampering. I would repeat this method and the same place again and again, and if I was successful multiple times, then I would move onto another location and repeat the processes.
I really hope a group reads what I just have written and takes it to heart and attempts this, in order to help prove the existence of the paranormal. Not to say I have the best idea, and what I am interested in hearing is *your* thoughts on this. If you were to prove the existence of the paranormal, how would you go about it?
Written by Gary Popella - Gary@ghosttheory.com
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I have had personal experiences to do with the paranormal. I lost my father back in 2001. In the few days leading up to the funeral, I was in the bathroom at the family home when from behind me I heard what sounded like a mocking laugh, “Ha” come out of nowhere and really startled me, there was nobody behind me. Another time again before the funeral I was washing up in the bathroom that belongs to my parents when I heard my name being called out of nowhere again, there was nobody in the bathroom with me at the time and I wasn’t drunk or taking drugs at the time.
Another more profound experience again happened at the family home, one of my sisters and a friend of hers hired a delivery van to move furniture from their rental home to the family home. They left the van parked outside the home in the driveway. The van’s engine caught fire and my sister, the friend, my mom and me left the house and stood outside watching the van and the fire build in intensity. We were sure the van was going to explode and destroy our home. I went next door to warn my neighbour about it. Apparently my mother started praying for some divine intervention to try and save our home. The three of them witnessed the van roll back up the driveway, uphill and against gravity by itself. I saw it to but from a different angle from my neighbours home. Firefighters arrived just in time and put the fire out, so the four of us witnessed it unfortunently we didn’t film it happen, but none of us were under the influence of alcohol or drugs that night. How could a motor vehicle roll back by itself against gravity?.
These personal experiences lead me to believe that the paranormal must be real, but how do you prove it with conclusive scientific data, will the paranormal ever been taken seriously by science?
anecdotes are the backbone of paranormal research.
while so many different things could explain most of these experiences people relate in a ‘normal’ vs. ‘paranormal’ way, will anyone who experienced something odd really listen and/or believe that it might NOT have been paranormal? it really seems like so many people who relate these experiences are ready and willing to believe it’s paranormal before they even attempt to rule out other things.
were there other people in your home when you heard the voices (ie could it have echoed from another room) could it have come from outside? tv? radio?
as for the van, if the engine caught fire i’m assuming it was running. i’m not a mechanic, but in the heat of a fire something might have dropped onto the accelerator and/or the engine parts that cause a car to move.
true story below. honest, i swear.
just the other night, right when i turned off the TV (everyone else was asleep) i heard what sounded like a male voice speaking some inarticulate words. it was immediately after i turned off the TV.
before i could even finish registering a “hmmm, what WAS that?” in my mind, i smelled something completely awful.
now, that’s quite a build up for a paranormal anecdote, right?
alas, right when i smelled the odor i looked down. my dog was at my feet. evidently her stomach had gurgled really loudly and/or she had farted out lout.
i cracked up laughing and immediately thought “what a ghost story!”
…your mislead hun cuase just cuase i think you are incorrect doesnt mean im someone else.
it had nothing to do with whether i was correct or incorrect about anything. it had to do with the timing, content, grammar and spelling.
And like I said before the two of you should drop it and get back to discussion.
although theirs certainly did, my posts never left the science/paranormal discussion.
This isnt a pulpit this is a forum ok Andrewkeeler, gary and Bellaboo.
ok mommy.
…It does ignore what doesn’t fit at times which is kinda humoress considering the quandry of quantum mechanics and the theory of relativity. Two well thought of, studied and widely accepted theories that are completely at odds with one another.
science does not “ignore what doesn’t fit.” unfounded generalization.
the theory of unification is indeed the golden goose. whether the other two theories are actually completely at odds with one another remains to be seen. but i bet you it’s going to be science and not p$ychics who find the answer.
Well something doesn’t fit now does it? I sure they’ll tie it all together one day, but guess what? More than likely one of these two theories is gonna go away.
go away?? LOL more likely be amended/modified.
I’ve seen ‘What the bleep do we know?’. Very good documentary that really shows that we know very little about the universe and the world we live in.
scientists nor skeptics ever even remotely try to say that we know everything about the universe/world we live in, although that is an intimation that believers like to bandy about.
i forget where i read this, but there was a back and forth between sckeptic and believer that went something like this:
believer: science thinks it knows everything.
skeptic: science isn’t a person, it’s a methodology — of course “science” doesn’t know everything. if it did, it would stop.
@Danny
“These personal experiences lead me to believe that the paranormal must be real,”
You’re making a huge leap from what you experienced to what you believe to be the correct conclusion. It’s like saying ‘I sneezed, therefor I have cancer’.
I’ve had ‘paranormal’ experiences as well. Many of them. I’ve learned that there are more possible explanations than I can think of for each and every one. And BTW for every ‘answered’ prayer you find, I’ll bet I can find hundreds that didn’t work out.
“but how do you prove it with conclusive scientific data,”
You can’t. All you have is a story that can be explained in many different ways.
“will the paranormal ever been taken seriously by science?”
Why do you think it’s not? The James Randi Educational Foundation offers one million dollars to *anyone* that can prove some paranormal ability, prove life after death, prove homeopathy to be effective etc. by using the scientific method. Sounds pretty serious to me. Take a looksee—> http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
While you’re there take a look at the Swift blog—> http://www.randi.org/site/
There’s a lot of knowledge there.
Gentlemen can we get back to the subject at hand.?.
Bellaboo/AUJT, you’re just rediculous.!.
I enjoy coming on this site everyday and reading the topics and what the readers have to say! It hasn’t been like that the last couple days. Actually since you joined these forums I’ve seen nothing but aggravation from other individuals that read your obnoxious comments.. Like I said once before in The Gable forums. “It would be fine if you had eveidence”, but you don’t! You just make smartass comments that prove nothing besides your retardation.
I like science too! I love it. They do ignore paranormal because theirs not much that they can do about it, It’s not in there field of work. You have skeptics and you have believers not you have scientist and believers. A scientist is just a person like you and I, and I’m sure that some of them have had there own paranormal experience’s.
If I’m not mistaken, Astrophysics and Astrology keep an eye out for signs of life on other planets.. NASA has many reports of UFO’s. They believe other intelligent life could possibly exist!
Scientist don’t believe in spirits and angels but some of them have witnessed a ghost.
I was raised to believe in god, but what science has taught me is that there is so many things that contradict the bible.,. but I don’t preach what I know to believers. Because It’s rude and I wouldn’t wish my worst enemy to know what I know. People need faith to be happy they need to know when they die they will be reunited with loved ones, they need to know that there will be someone or something that will love them unconditionally no matter how they are or look. I have children and they’re gonna be raised to believe in god!
I’m not a mean person I just want the forums to turn back to normal!
@Bellaboo
“look at what “kicking and screaming” science has accomplished since the 1800s. compare that to what parapsychology has accomplished.”
LOL! I know! Most your ‘believers’ don’t stop to consider that most everything around them is a product of science. Science gives and the woo take away.
@andrewkeeler
“Although it can be scary at first and I dont suggest being wreckless it can bring a sense of spiritual awarness that is truly a paradigm shift”
Or not. Think about it, every place on earth should be haunted.
“Science although a the greatest achievement of man is also inherently flawed.”
The method is flawless, people are flawed. Think. Science is provisional. It’s open to new data and information. Science seeks truth about the universe and the world around us. I cannot think of a more noble or flawless pursuit.
“If you want to see an incredible film that really make you think and I find very revealing is “what the Bleep do we know”
Puhlease… what a disappointment that movie was. “Now I’ve seen it I can confirm that it does distort quantum physics to support a mystical viewpoint. But it is much more than that. Much worse. Hilariously so, in fact.” http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/04/what_the_bleep_.html
“Oh and AUJT the bible has many verses about Spirits other than angels and demons.”
Nope, it doesn’t. The only one is the Samuel one you referenced.
‘The Bible makes it abundantly clear that there are spirit beings, both good and evil. But the Bible negates the idea that the spirits of deceased human beings can remain on earth and “haunt” the living.’
http://www.gotquestions.org/ghosts-hauntings.html
There’s plenty more websites and books in the library that support this.
@Gary
“I sure they’ll tie it all together one day, but guess what? More than likely one of these two theories is gonna go away.”
Did Newton’s theory of gravity go away with relativity? Nope. Newton says that gravity pulls us down and Einstein says that gravity pushes us down. Point is, that it’s still useful and probably always will be. The beauty of science.
Building upon knowledge. And guaranteed, E=MC2 ain’t goin’ nowhere.
I enjoy coming on this site everyday and reading the topics and what the readers have to say!
so do i. not every day, but a few times a week usually.
It hasn’t been like that the last couple days. Actually since you joined these forums I’ve seen nothing but aggravation from other individuals that read your obnoxious comments..
since who joined? me? if so, why don’t you tell everyone when i joined, amber.
Like I said once before in The Gable forums. “It would be fine if you had eveidence”, but you don’t! You just make smartass comments that prove nothing besides your retardation.
no idea what you’re talking about. aw c’mon – is this more trolling?!
I like science too! I love it.
i can suggest some great books if you’d like.
If I’m not mistaken, Astrophysics and Astrology keep an eye out for signs of life on other planets
LOL!!! weeelllll, you’re partially not mistaken. astrology has nothing to do with science in general nor searching for signs of life on other planets in particular.
NASA has many reports of UFO’s. They believe other intelligent life could possibly exist!
this is not news. it’s commonly accepted in the scientific community that it’s mathematically impossible, given the vastness of the universe, for there NOT to be life elsewhere. this has nothing at all to do with the paranormal.
Scientist don’t believe in spirits and angels but some of them have witnessed a ghost.
well, i can’t speak for all scientists, but vic tandy certainly had an interesting experience:
<blockquote cite="Tandy was working late in the "haunted" Warwick laboratory when he saw a gray thing coming for him. "I felt the hairs rise on the back of my neck," he said. "It seemed to be between me and the door, so the only thing I could do was turn and face it."* But the thing disappeared. However, it reappeared in a different form the next day when Tandy was doing some work on his fencing foil. "The handle was clamped in a vice on a workbench, yet the blade started vibrating like mad," he said. He wondered why the blade vibrated in one part of room but not in another. The explanation, he discovered, was that infrasound was coming from an extractor fan. "When we finally switched it off, it was as if a huge weight was lifted," he said. "It makes me think that one of the applications of this ongoing research could be a link between infrasound and sick-building syndrome." When he measured the infrasound in the laboratory, the showing was 18.98 hertz–the exact frequency at which a human eyeball starts resonating. The sound waves made his eyeballs resonate and produced an optical illusion: He saw a figure that didn't exist."
I’m not a mean person
me neither. plus, i don’t resort to petty name calling on public blogs and forums either. yay me!
I just want the forums to turn back to normal!
ie, go away skeptics?!
it’s interesting, amber, that you chide two skeptics for disrupting the discussions when in fact it’s believers doing all of the off-topic tantrum-throwing and name-calling.
I think all this tantrum throwing and name calling is pointless, I was annoyed with AUJT regarding his comments but it serves no purpose getting into an argument over this issue. It’s science versus what religion says
It’s science versus what religion says
yep, just like science vs. paranormal. (religion is based on the belief in “paranormal” things)
what most PN believers tend to forget is that MOST skeptics were once believers.
possibly some critically-minded folks were actually raised to think in such a way, but most children are spoon fed their parents’ own belief system and grow up just as immersed in religion and/or the paranormal as someone like…oh, i dunno — fill in the blank.
i like to think critical thinking is gaining ground. very slowly, but it’s happening.
I was annoyed with AUJT regarding his comments
just curious, why were you annoyed? i didn’t see anything AUJT posted as personally insulting to anyone.
i’m honestly curious what about AUJT’s posts annoyed you, danny.
it’s always nice to have a discussion with believers without having anyone resort to lame name-calling so thanks for being calm
I felt annoyed with the concept that says if religion says something like ghosts don’t exist then religion must be right, it can’t be questioned an the same thing with the bible, if something isnt written in the bible then it must be false, the bible cant be questioned, its the truth, period.
AUJT did accuse me of being narrowminded over this issue and I felt like responding to him or her with a few words of my own but in an earlier posting I did write, everyones entilted to have an opinion on this subject of ghosts both for and against. I really want to believe that these things really do exist. PEACE!
@Danny
“I felt annoyed with the concept that says if religion says something like ghosts don’t exist then religion must be right”
That’s what the Christian bible says, not me. The bible is a convoluted contradiction that’ll either make you crazy (generally and relatively speaking of course) or make you want to run away from it. It’s amusing (as well as frustrating and very sad)to watch some people try and make sense out of it though. It has it’s insights and is helpful to some degree but in general, the xtian god is the epitome of immaturity and immorality.
“AUJT did accuse me of being narrowminded over this issue”
No, I did not. I asked you questions that you never answered. They were not rhetorical, they were serious questions. I’m simply trying to understand your perspective.
“I really want to believe that these things really do exist.”
Why? Really. I think your statement is an honest one and I will not be so presumptuous as to think that I might know why you want to believe this. I suspect that it may be rooted in emotion but I don’t know this so, why?
“and I felt like responding to him or her with a few words of my own”
Certainly you can discuss this without ad homs, no?
@amb3rfaith
“People need faith to be happy they need to know when they die they will be reunited with loved ones, they need to know that there will be someone or something that will love them unconditionally no matter how they are or look”
What people and why is it that you believe that they “need” this? Perhaps they were told this and they believed it? Maybe they were told that they weren’t worthy of love but there was one who’d love them anyway? Were they told that they were bad simply by virtue of being human? Maybe they need this because they were manipulated into believing as such?
People strive for the seemingly unattainable, permanence and consistency. The world is dynamic, ever changing and for whatever reason we try and make it static.
I’d like to think that I will be united with past loved ones but I accept that just may not be the case. I can say “I don’t know” and be fine with that. It’s all about accepting the fact that I don’t know. Once I accept that fact I can begin to try and find the truth of the matter from an objective viewpoint.
If I am trained/indoctrinated into a religion at an early age it is exponentially more difficult to arrive at the ‘I don’t know’ level (if ever attained at all) and totally prohibits me from unbiased reality based thinking. IOW someone else has done my thinking for me and we remain in a non progressive state, we learn little of nothing.
You can do that though if you really want to. I don’t.
I guess like Amb3faith said in her last post, having the belief that there will be loved ones that have gone before me to the afterlife and they will be there waiting for me when I die brings me a feeling of comfort, it just feels good, I feel better at least believing this though neither us know what the afterlife or the spirit world really is like, we are all destined to find out oneday whether we believe in an afterlife or not.
I have a religous background as well, I was raised as a catholic though its been a while since I went to church. I still think its possible spirits roam the earth and haunt the living though I cant prove it, I don’t care what religion, the bible or skeptics say about this issue I will always have the belief that this is possible, oneday I will find out the truth when I die.
@Danny
“I guess like Amb3faith said in her last post, having the belief that there will be loved ones that have gone before me to the afterlife and they will be there waiting for me when I die brings me a feeling of comfort, it just feels good,”
I do understand what you mean but for me, the trade off is simply not worth it. But I totally get it.
This is been a very interesting read, the only thing I would add is that it’s not that science is ignoring the paranormal, science doesn’t care about the paranormal. The only serious study that is going on is that the paranormal exists within the boundaries of the human experience. In other words the paranormal experiences are a misinterpretation of natural events. Fueled by a mythology. And human psychology.
If you look at it is that just a little bit of critical thinking it would be easy to see that if the supernatural existed it would defy many laws of physics. So such a force would have been detected by conventional means long ago. The reality is the paranormal cannot even withstand the most basic of scientific principles such as the null hypothesis. And the paranormal community and alleged paranormal researchers have not collected any concrete evidence, primarily only experiences and experiences are not evidence. Since in science definitions are important the paranormal community has not even collected enough for a hypothesis.
No matter how much you believe in something it does not make it so, science at least good science does not work on preconceived notions. Jumping to the conclusion that X must be the result of paranormal activity is very flawed thinking, and could actually be considered closed minded. The natural explanation for X more than likely results in factors that are well within the realm of the natural world. By jumping to the conclusion that X is caused by the paranormal you have just surrendered curiosity. Thinking forward and curiosity and change are the foundations science is built on. Not chasing mythologies which is the foundation that the paranormal is built on.
So a brief summary of the paranormal could be, the paranormal is a belief system propped up by pseudoscience.
Best regards
BatBoy
Well written comment BatBoy! Despite the silly battle raging here on this forum, we really do like to have skeptical comments written here by skeptics, especially when written in a constructive, civil manner.
@Batboy
Can you explain the Null Hypothesis in very simple terms and how it specifically relates to the paranormal?
batboy
i understand where your coming from on this as far as your physics argument. But what physics? Are we talking newtonian? Relative? Quantum? Becuase Frankly Quantum physics currently makes the idea of the paranormal extremely convincing and in fact quite possible. The idea that energy and electrons are constantly shifting and following no known path backs that. For example M theory states that we live in a multi dimensional universe with a constant shifting of energy and particles in between. But due to the fact that M is a theory although a heavily supported one ill take it down a notch and explain my reason.
According to most quantum physics explanations and even larger astrophysics theorys we live in a multi dimensional universe. Now for this excersizes sake ill explain certain aspects of this idea. We only see 3 dimensions of this universe and although you could consider time the 4th dimension we cant exactly see time. You can only see the effects of it so to simplify we live in a world with aspects of other dimensions that we cannot see. Now im not going to say how many there are cuase that is an object of hot debate and ranges from 9 to 11 with string theory and all the way up to infinite. Now for the mental excersize.
Lets picture suddenly we find the exsistence of 2 dimensional life. And intelligent life at that. Now these flat blocks and square go about their exsistence with no idea as to us. They can only see in 2 dimensions and everything they know is as such. Now lets say for example we place an apple in this 2 dimensional universe. We will place it inside mr squares box/home. Now Mr. Box is terrified becuase something seemingly out of nowhere materialized in his room. Now he cant understand what it is or what is happening because he can only see in 2 dimensions. To him its an Shapeless blob that somehow appeared in his room without having to go through any door. Than it dissapears and simple as it had come.
Mr square is clueless as to what happend and thinks it was a ghost because he has no better explanation.
Now this excersize was talking about 2 dimensional beings seeing 3 dimensional life but not comprehending it. Now relate that to our exsistence as a species. If our universe consists of more than our dimensional space and if for example something or someone could interact with us what would be the result? And how could you explain something like that using science and logic based on a 3 dimensional exsistence? Just something to think about..
Aujt
You are wrong. I just pointed out the fact that you where wrong and stated the bible references and where you can find them and you put up a website? And no not every place is haunted you moron. Trying to make belivers look stupid by spouting out skeptic nonsence isnt going work. Form your own opinion and stop requoting someone elses ideas.
Also that movie has some of the most respected scientists and professers. You telling me that they are just theorizing this crap for fun? Its funny to watch some Skeptics that are so angry with the idea that they litterally attack it. Now Im not a full on beliver I have my questions and experiences. But until you have actually been in the field and until you have actually done any personal research all you doing is preaching.
And here is the biblical references go look em up for YOURSELF and stop being a tool. and typing something into google DOESNT COUNT AS RESEARCH.
I Samuel 28:15,Luke 24:34-39,Mark 16:9-12,Matthew 14:26,Matthew 27:52-53,Hebrews 12:1,Mark 9:4.
@andrewkeeler
“You are wrong. I just pointed out the fact that you where wrong and stated the bible references and where you can find them and you put up a website?”
You gave no references. And I can’t make much sense out of this sentence/question.
“And no not every place is haunted you moron”
Name calling is acceptable by admin for “believers” and proponents of woo only so have at it. And BTW you obviously didn’t give too much thought to my statement or perhaps you simply didn’t understand it?
“Also that movie has some of the most respected scientists and professers.”
Few and some claim that they were edited out of context and would have never taken part in this bogus commercial for some BS cult if they had been told how they were going to be portrayed.
“Where the Bleep they’re Wrong about Quantum Physics & Reality”
http://www.abc.net.au/science/features/bleep/
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/04-10-01
http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-09/review.html
http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/feature/2004/09/16/bleep/index.html
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/04/what_the_bleep_.html
“Its funny to watch some Skeptics that are so angry with the idea that they litterally attack it.”
Yes, I get angry with people for spreading distortions, lies and BS.
“You telling me that they are just theorizing this crap for fun?”
And profit.
And the scriptures you just referenced are nothing more than the fictional story of jesus’ resurrection, jesus supposedly talking with a couple of dead prophets (wonder how they knew what they looked like? Was Moses depicted on their coinage?) blah blah *nothing* that has to do with hauntings or spirits roaming the earth.
“But until you have actually been in the field and until you have actually done any personal research all you doing is preaching.”
hehehehehe The only thing there is to research are stories, personal anecdotes. Man, you’d think that every cell phone having a camera and voice recorder, cameras on 24/7 in many places ect. that someone would capture some real “paranormal” anomaly but nope.
People need to learn to question their senses and closely examine the circumstances surrounding a “paranormal” event. Our senses are fooled easily and we often misinterpret natural phenomena as paranatural. IOW we all need to apply critical thinking skills to every aspect of our lives. Unless you willfully want to deceive yourself of course.
BTW you probably have a spell check feature just in case you didn’t know, but it won’t help you with syntax and verbalizing thoughts in general.
@andrewkeeler
“Form your own opinion and stop requoting someone elses ideas. ”
In psychology, this is called “projection”.
“Now for the mental excersize.”
I am familiar with this thought experiment (as it’s a pretty old one) and it’s good to see that you’re paying attention to Carl Sagan.—>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVXV8XB-GPo
Here’s the problem: in the two dimensional world, there is something tangible (the perfectly flat slice of apple) to contemplate, real evidence. We’ve no real evidence of a forth dimension, time aside. Now, I understand that string theory posits that gravity is “leaking” into our three dimensions from other dimensions but we certainly don’t know this to be true.
The last I heard was that an Australian Physicist had combined the various string theories and unified them into one of 11 dimensions, M theory. You may want to check out the series on PBS, here—> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html
Keep it civil people, we are not going to tolerate name calling on the forums.
Despite the silly battle raging here on this forum, we really do like to have skeptical comments written here by skeptics, especially when written in a constructive, civil manner.
there definitely was a concerted effort to start a ‘battle’ in this topic, but if just one side is waxing angry and acting inappropriately it’s not much of a fight.
there are quite a few people who leave skeptical comments here. fwiw, i’ve yet to see a skeptic post in an uncivil manner — i suppose construct is in the subjective eye of the reader.
Keep it civil people, we are not going to tolerate name calling on the forums.
that’s great news and better late than never!
@AUJT i loved brian greene’s book (even if a lot of it was over my head) and i’ll have to check out the nova program – thanks for the link
AUJT,
The null hypothesis is used in science and in many cases engineering as a method for compiling evidence to put together a theory.
It starts with a hypothesis, as relates to the paranormal it would be.
Hypothesis: Paranormal phenomena is a result of the activity of disembodied spirits.
You may not agree with this hypothesis but it’s all for the sake of argument. Now you have two prove whether or not your hypothesis is true. You have to carry out experimentation catching disembodied spirits in the act of causing paranormal phenomena. Keep in mind that the baseline of your hypothesis is existence of disembodied spirits. At the end of your experimentation when you have collected your data. Now you need to compare the results with with the opposite hypothesis in order to back up your original hypothesis this would be your null hypothesis.
Null Hypothesis: Paranormal phenomena is not a result of the activity of disembodied spirits.
If you want to go one further the next step would be the Alternate Hypothesis
Alternate Hypothesis: Paranormal phenomena is a result of the activity of disembodied spirits.
Now in order to prove your hypothesis is right you must now show that the null hypothesis is wrong with the use of statistics. You have to nullify the null hypothesis. However your Alternate Hypothesis is wrong until proven otherwise. With the use of strong evidence and statistics to back it up. I hope that was simple enough.
andrewkeeler
Quantum mechanics or quantum physics I know is popular among those who are proponents of the paranormal. Mainly from those who have a Discovery Channel or What the bleep do we know orThe Secret, knowledge of the subject. I remember seeing the movie What the bleep do we know on some cable channel and actually got physically ill. Quantum physics can be twisted around and if you’re so inclined to believe that magic beans produce giant bean stocks. You might be able to make up a formula, however your quantum hypothesis would not take you any closer to making your belief of magic beans and their abilities to grow giant bean stocks into reality.
I don’t like doing links but I am incredibly busy. So I am sending you to a link written by Robert Novella and is posted on the New England Skeptical Societies website.
http://www.theness.com/quantum-confusion/
Best regards
BatBoy
@Batboy
“I hope that was simple enough.”
Well, it seems that there’s not enough data to even begin to consider applying the null hypothesis. Am I correct in this assumption?
“I remember seeing the movie What the bleep do we know on some cable channel and actually got physically ill”
I recall seeing it when it was first shown on TV. This was before I became an active skeptic. I suppose that I was actively apathetic.
I found ‘what the bleep’ boring and disappointing and I am amazed that it became as popular as it has as I find it has no usefulness whatsoever other than potentially giving a reasonable person a snicker. Hardly worth watching for that.
I suppose that I was actively apathetic.
i was like that, too, until i watched my first episode of “paranormal state”.
i actually used to watch ‘ghost hunters’ hoping for them to find SOMEthing. ANYthing. plus i liked the locations.
then i watched that very first PS episode and was like THAT’S IT! this stuff is utter crap and it needs a major LAMBASTING
the AE forums were pretty entertaining for a while there. the show’s fans (ie family members, cast and crew?) were hilariously crazy about the show getting panned by so many people, and on AE’s website to boot!
good times!
AUJT,
Yes you assumed correctly, also the hypothesis set forth contains a mythology. In science the mythology would have to be removed.
Best regards
BatBoy
Essentially the title of this article is VERY true!
Scientific proof of ghosts: The Ultimate Fools Quest.
You can’t come up with any scientific proof, not because ghosts don’t exist necessarily but because whatever evidence that you may have caught on film or video tape and present, you will ALWAYS be accused of fakery, “photoshop” being the popular buzz word amongst skeptics these days.
It’s all to do with belief systems of the skeptics….they believe that nothing in this world cannot be explained away by science, and science doesn’t yet recognise ghost as being real phenomena.
So catch 22, the skeptics won’t believe anything that science can’t explain and science can’t explain the ghost phenomena.
Unless skeptics can open themselves more to at least the possibility that ghosts might be a phenomena that science might one day explain then no progress is going to be made.
They(Scientists) once said that It was impossible for any life to survive without Sunlight and the energy of the Sun.
They were wrong!
And that revision of scientific “impossibility” only occurred as late as the 1970s!
Who knows it may take a further 100,or even 1000 years before a similar revision of scientific “impossibility” regarding ghosts.
As with the abundant life forms at the bottom of the ocean, where no sun light has ever penetrated, it may well turn out that ghosts just like these ocean floor creatures were always there,…..but simply had to wait till man developed advanced enough equipment to discover them.
I agree KL,
Much of mainstream science is bogged down in the dogma that science ultimately holds the final word on what exists and what is possible in the universe. Modern skepticism has mutated from a belief system of ‘doubt’ to a belief system of ‘deny’ and thus is marginalizing the possiblities of the universe. The psuedo-skeptics love this line of thinking since it makes them ‘correct’ and winners by default in debates and arguments.
Scientist have had to continually update their knowledge throughout the centuries as new discoveries and scientific advances expanded the universal model they have had to work with, yet it boggles my mind that to think that mainstream science has kept itself closed-minded in thinking when it comes to anything paranormal. It’s crazy actually. We have only touched the proverbial tip of the iceberg in science with regards to the universe.
Until the day it’s proved true or false, we shall just have to continue to speculate.
Agreed. There is certainly an argument here, but unfortunately all participants are limited to heresay and their own experiences.
The “science as dogma/religion” notion is quite prevalent amongst paranormal believers.
Unfortunately, what many of the people who dismiss scientific inquiry into the paranormal seem to miss is that science is actually putting forth theories and explanations for “paranormal” experiences all the time. Unfortunately most of these don’t mesh with what the believers want to hear, so the theories and explanations are either ignored or dismissed. Theories like pareidolia, hypnagogic hallucinations, neurological/neurotransmitter problems which cause schizophrenia and other diseases. Theories like exposure to infrasonic or other environmental electromagnetic frequencies could be responsible for seeing “shadow people” and having “eerie” feelings.
I don’t claim to be an expert, but obviously your belief or disbelief in the paranormal is going to rely heavily on your own ability to weigh the evidence or lack of evidence for its existence. Stating that science will NEVER be able to prove the paranormal is a bit disingenuous, especially if the ONLY explanation that is desired equals the existence of actual ghosts/spirits/demons.
Here is an interesting article on this topic:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=skeptic-agenticity
Here is a discussion amongst skeptics about the ’science as dogma/religion’ argument:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=160998
While some of the comments in that discussion are quite sarcastic (albeit pretty funny) I think that a few of the statements address the “science as dogma” quite well:
“Science is the collection of reproducable truths of the physical world, regardless of what you believe.”
“Science will change when the evidence changes.” (This addresses KL’s “they once believed…” argument.)
Sure, theories are presented all the time, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the theories presented are concise or true either, hence they are theories. Theories are constantly changing (at least in the scope of scientific history), and will constantly change. What may be an accepted theory today, does not mean is will be accepted tommorow. Science does change when evidence changes, yet evidence is what changes it, not the lack of evidence.
Obviously, everyone is biased in their own opinions one way or another, in just about every facet of science, religion, politics, etc. Stating that science will never prove the existence of the paranormal may be disingenuous, yet by scientific standards, it may not be possible, due to the rigorous conditions of controlled enviroments and such.
Even though ‘Science is the collection of reproducable truths of the physical world’, it continues to evolve on a daily basis, usually by scientists determined to clarify theories in their relevant fields of study. Unfortunately, their are no scientists of the paranormal (at least that I know of) that are trained, much less, accredited. Hence we have to rely on outside theories to fill the vacuum.
If you look at the statement ‘Science is the collection of reproducable truths of the physical world’, you will notice that ‘physical world’ is the keyword. Recently, theories into the existence of multiple dimensions, if not multiple universes are coming into light, yet how can we perceive another ‘physical’ universe/dimension in our own universe/dimension?
Science is only at the tip of the proverbial iceberg in it’s knowledge, which is humbling to say the least. Who knows what lies ahead in the not so distant future.
“Sure, theories are presented all the time, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the theories presented are concise or true either, hence they are theories.”
It’s interesting to note that many paranormalists would give less weight to scientific theories (backed by rigorous research and peer review) than to theories about their beloved paranormal (which were likely read about in books or online by such experts as Lorraine Warren, Sylvia Brown, and sundry parapsychologists. FWIW, There is no peer review in the paranormal theory world since there are no centrally trained/accepted accredited professionals in the field, as you noted.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapsychology
Point being, paranormal believers would rather believe it’s a ghost than believe it’s their own brain playing tricks on them. They would rather believe a “psychic” is talking to their dearly departed relative than believe that it’s just a con artist scamming them with cold reading and other easily-learned psychological techniques.
I say foster/teach your present or future children a love of science and math – don’t fill their heads with “spirits and demons” and the joys and trials of discovering the unknown universe awaits, be it “ghosts”, infrasonic disturbances, or memory confabulations.
It’s interesting to note that many psuedo-skeptics give absolutely no weight to anything other than what science has to offer when it comes to the debate of the paranormal, and just about any other non-materialistic idea. Just because people have beliefs into religion, homeopathy, near death experiences, etc, still doesn’t mean science has the final word on the subject, whereas that is exactly what psuedo-skeptics want.
You have your views, I have mine, and it’s best to leave it that way instead of continuing what will be a pointless debate ending in stalemate.
Wow, reading the original post and attempting to maul through the debate is making my head spin. The sad part is, in my opinion, everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Scientists and metaphysicists have been having the same arguments for generations. Do ghosts really exist? Is there some power out there we can’t touch, but know it’s there. Are there forces we can’t see pulling the strings from behind the scenes?
Is is possible that scientists have taken such a grand interest in proving or disproving because of what pseudopsychics feel? I remain firm that both sides of the debate need each other in order for us to stay focused and humbled on what’s really going on. What is it that’s really going on? Where’s the concrete evidence? Very few have it and then it’s found to be a scientific anomolly that’s proveable.
All of us have the ability to open up and see or hear things that aren’t there. It’s just a matter of what we believe. We also all have the ability to take the time to scientifically prove a theory wrong or right. Being one who falls into the “pseudopscyhic” category, after every sense that goes off, I’m wanting to prove it is or isn’t correct. I’m not always right and that keeps me humble.
I agree with Gary, stop the arguing and figure out that it’s a senseless argument that doesn’t need to be had.
there are no answers to be found in paranormal research just experiences…. because some things are and will always be a mystery.
It’s clear that the majority of the posters on this website may not have a scientific background necessarily. There seems to be a great deal of discussion regarding “science” and what might actually be in the bounds of science. That, however, is NOT the issue being discussed. Rather, its the scientific method being discussed, and its ability to prove any number of concepts, even those outside the commonly accepted “bounds” of science. Medical science relies heavily on the assumption that removing the majority of variables in an experience allows a physician to accurately measure the affect of the remaining variables, and, hopefully, over a number of repetitions and within a statistically significant number of test subjects, that physician can make some scientifically viable conclusions based on the experiment. The original post here inquires, “What scientific experiment would, in fact, prove the existence of the paranormal?” The original experiment posited would, in fact, not stand up to peer-review. It allows for a number of variables, including human error, no controls, and outside tampering, among others, and relies on the ASSUMPTION that ghosts can be caught on camera and other scientific information. Any ideas on what experiment might actually stand up to peer-review. It MUST have controls, reasonably eliminate human error, and provide reliable, reproducible, rigorously-obtained scientific evidence.
To me it seems that paranormal research is in a similar state that scientific research was in during the
middle ages. For example, back then there was no distinction between astronomy and astrology or chemistry
and alchemy. Scientific study was so intertwined with religion that it was often difficult to take anyone
seriously as there were so many charlatans mixed in with serious investigators.
To draw parallels on paranormal research, many people see little or no difference between the reality of
UFOs and ghosts vs that of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.
I personally believe that ghosts and UFOs exist but just because I “believe in the paranormal” does not
mean that I believe that Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster exist. These things clearly fall into the same
“fantasy” category as Santa, the Tooth Fairy, astrology and homeopathy.
As far as ghosts, spirits, demons, or whatever you want to call them, are concerned, I must say that they
absolutely unequivocally exist.* The question should not be “DO they exist?” but rather “WHAT are they?”
This is where the modern day parallel to astrology comes in.
We are probably no more knowledgeable of what ghosts are than our ancestors were when they tried to
understand what caused thunder or the relative motion of the planets. Our ancestors often turned to
religion to attempt explain these things which of course did not help them to truly understand the reality
of what they were observing.
Many people make the same mistake when they seek out mystics, “crystal healers”, and the opinions of other
wacky individuals who feign paranormal insight. Parlor room frauds such as these not only victimize their
prey, but they also seriously damage the credibility of any “serious” paranormal research.
*The reason why I am so sure that they exist is because of an objective experience I had in college that
turned my “beliefs” on their head. About 15 years ago in college I was in my girlfriend’s dorm-room and
about 5 other girls were “playing ouija” (I know about all the warnings against that blah blah blah).
The girls at one point asked the spirit, “Kevin” for a sign that he was in the room.
(I’m going to cut to the chase here)
When I had entered the room I had a can of Pepsi with me, I asked if the ghost would be able to move the
can. I placed the can on the tile floor then one of the girls and me gently placed our fingers on top of
opposite rims of the can. The can then began rotating under our fingers. I then asked if it could lift the
can then with our fingers still on the rim of the can the can began to lift about 1/2 inch off the floor. I
can remember that is felt like static electricity similar to what you get when holding your hand near near
clothes that were just pulled out of a dryer. “Kevin” also moved other objects in the room in a similar
way, but I won’t get into now. I will just say that it completely blew my beliefs out of the water.
Due to this one objective experience, I must say that, yes, ghosts do exist, but I am still not sure just
what they are and I don’t think that charlatans or religion will ever be able to provide the answer any
more than they were able help to come up with the theories of relativity or quantum mechanics.
I put UFOs in the same category as ghosts, but that’s another “dissertation”
To me it seems that paranormal research is in a similar state that scientific research was in during the middle ages. For example, back then there was no distinction between astronomy and astrology or chemistry and alchemy. Scientific study was so intertwined with religion that it was often difficult to take anyone seriously as there were so many charlatans mixed in with serious investigators.
To draw parallels on paranormal research, many people see little or no difference between the reality of UFOs and ghosts vs that of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.
I personally believe that ghosts and UFOs exist but just because I “believe in the paranormal” does not mean that I believe that Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster exist. These things clearly fall into the same “fantasy” category as Santa, the Tooth Fairy, astrology and homeopathy.
As far as ghosts, spirits, demons, or whatever you want to call them, are concerned, I must say that they absolutely unequivocally exist.* The question should not be “DO they exist?” but rather “WHAT are they?” This is where the modern day parallel to astrology comes in.
We are probably no more knowledgeable of what ghosts are than our ancestors were when they tried to understand what caused thunder or the relative motion of the planets. Our ancestors often turned to religion to attempt explain these things which of course did not help them to truly understand the reality of what they were observing.
Many people make the same mistake when they seek out mystics, “crystal healers”, and the opinions of other wacky individuals who feign paranormal insight. Parlor room frauds such as these not only victimize their prey, but they also seriously damage the credibility of any “serious” paranormal research.
*The reason why I am so sure that they exist is because of an objective experience I had in college that turned my “beliefs” on their head. About 15 years ago in college I was in my girlfriend’s dorm-room and about 5 other girls were “playing ouija” (I know about all the warnings against that blah blah blah).
The girls at one point asked the spirit, “Kevin” for a sign that he was in the room.
(I’m going to cut to the chase here)
When I had entered the room I had a can of Pepsi with me, I asked if the ghost would be able to move the can. I placed the can on the tile floor then one of the girls and me gently placed our fingers on top of opposite rims of the can. The can then began rotating under our fingers. I then asked if it could lift the can then with our fingers still on the rim of the can the can began to lift about 1/2 inch off the floor. I can remember that is felt like static electricity similar to what you get when holding your hand near near clothes that were just pulled out of a dryer. “Kevin” also moved other objects in the room in a similar way, but I won’t get into now. I will just say that it completely blew my beliefs out of the water.
Due to this one objective experience, I must say that, yes, ghosts do exist, but I am still not sure just what they are and I don’t think that charlatans or religion will ever be able to provide the answer any more than they were able help to come up with the theories of relativity or quantum mechanics.
I put UFOs in the same category as ghosts, but that’s another “dissertation”
My apologies for the doubleposting.
Bellaboo,
I think people have a problem with your attitude, not with your arguments. Clearly there is nothing anyone can say to make you state your arguments in a different way, but after looking through these pages of comments, there is definitely an air of arrogance to your comments which I am put off by.
I just needed to say that.
I’d like to bring this back to Gary, who’s idea of spending true time at a “haunted” location is a wonderful idea. Many may have tryed this and it makes perfect sence, wireing a house up with video and voice/sound devices is a great start. What is the pain staking part is going through all the recoredings after you have filled out your time limit. The web sites that claim to have “live” feed from haunted liberarys, houses and halls, the lighting is weak at best, and I don’t think anything has ever truly been “caught” on any of them. Correct me if I’m wrong.
I’m no expert by any sence of the word, but I find it very anoying on the T.V. shows of the “investigators” doing there walk throughs and filmings, when something happens the camera person points the camera at the “investigator” not in the direction of the occurance. I dont care if the investigator is stardled I want to see what there looking at, not what they “look like” as they are looking. Kind of ruins the whole catcha moment.
So what would it take to put together a solid group of people willing to be “locked” into a property for say a week to do everything we talk about here at GT? What/where would be a location that could bring the results that would qwell the thrust for evidance about the paranormal, how many experts would sign on for this project, and how could it be done to protect the integity of the project?
Just food for the fire.
Good hunting/haunting